EBB 214 – Supporting Pumping Parents in Lactation with IBCLC, Nichelle Clark

Learn more about Nichelle Clark here. Follow Nichelle on Facebook and on Instagram. 

Listen to EBB 189 here. 

Learn more about Academy of Breastfeeding Medicine here.

Learn more about Black Breastfeeding Mamas Circle here.

Learn more about Breast Milk Donation for Black Moms here.

Learn more about Lactation Education Resources here.

Learn more about the United States of Lactation Consultants Association (USLCA) here.

Learn about the Black Birth Healer here.

Iya Mystique Faodugun:

Hi everyone. On today’s podcast, to celebrate IBCLC Day, we’re going to highlight and talk with IBCLC Nichelle Clark about supporting pumping parents in lactation.

Rebecca Dekker:

Welcome to the Evidence Based Birth® Podcast. My name is Rebecca Dekker, and I’m a nurse with my PhD and the founder of Evidence Based Birth®. Join me each week as we work together to get evidence-based information into the hands of families and professionals around the world. As a reminder, this information is not medical advice. See ebbirth.com/disclaimer for more details.

Iya Mystique Faodugun:

Hi everyone. My name is Iya Mystique Faodugun, pronouns they/she.

Rebecca Dekker:

And my name is Rebecca Dekker, pronouns she/her, and we will be your cohosts for today’s episode. Today, we are so excited here at Evidence Based Birth® to welcome Nichelle Clark to talk about supporting pumping parents while they’re lactating. Before we interview Nichelle, I want to let you know that if there are any detailed content or trigger warnings, we’ll post them in the description or show notes that go along with this episode. And now, Mystique will introduce our honored guest.

Iya Mystique Faodugun:

Nichelle Clark, pronouns she/her, is an International Board Certified Lactation Consultant, or IBCLC, wife, and mother of one residing in Chesapeake, Virginia. She is the owner of SonShine & Rainbows Lactation Services. Born and raised in Upper Marlboro, Maryland, Nichelle joined the United States Navy in 2010 and served honorably for 7.5 years. In 2020, she founded Black Breastfeeding 365, an organization that seeks to bridge the gap between Black parents and the lactation professionals who serve them. When she’s not spending time with her husband and four-year-old son … who is adorable, by the way … she serves as United States Lactation Consultant Association, or USLCA, advisory board member, and Clinical Lactation Journal social media editor. In her spare time, she admins multiple online support groups for people of color, providing breastfeeding support and lactation education to her community. As an exclusive pumping mom herself, Nichelle is a champion for breastfeeding parents to write down their own rules and breastfeed their way. We are so thrilled that Nichelle is here at EBB on our podcast. Welcome to the Evidence Based Birth® Podcast, Nichelle.

Nichelle Clark:

Thank you so much. I’m so geeking out. I’m like … I’m so excited.

Iya Mystique Faodugun:

Yes. I’m so excited that you’re here. We know each other, but the listeners don’t. Because I love Nichelle. You’re going to hear me say that a lot.

Nichelle Clark:

Me too.

Iya Mystique Faodugun:

I love what she does and what she’s all about. But I want you to tell our listeners who may not know you about your journey into becoming an IBCLC.

Nichelle Clark:

Yeah. Thank you guys so much, again, for having me. I love Evidence Based Birth®. I listen to the podcast. The website is just absolutely amazing and I use the content just all the time, just to further my knowledge. I am very heavily into lactation, but of course, as we know, they’re linked together. Birth and breastfeeding/chestfeeding are one. If one is awry, then most likely, the other one’s going to be awry.

My journey into lactation really came because I couldn’t find anyone who looked like me to help me. And I mean that figuratively and literally. I knew from four months pregnant with my son that I wanted to exclusively pump. Or I had this crazy idea about, “What if I don’t put him to the breast and I just give him breast milk? Can I just do that?” And I met with five IBCLCs, some of whom are now my colleagues, and everyone was like, “It’s just not possible. It’s not a thing. Sorry. You’re never going to be able to maintain your supply here. That’s not how it works.” And I was like, “Why not?”

Mystique, you know me very well, so I love a challenge. I love when someone says, “You can’t do something,” and I’m like, “I’m not sure about that.” So I did my thing. I learned a lot when I was pregnant, went ahead about my journey, and about six months in, I was like, “You know what? Parents should be able to … Surely I’m not the only person who thinks that they want to do it this way.” I was like, “They should have lactation consultants that are like that.” Then of course, I am a Black woman, and so … I live in Southern Virginia and there are not a lot of lactation professionals of color, period, here, and so that was also, of course, a challenge for me and my new family.

I said, “You know what? I’m going to be a IBCLC.” I was determined in my head. I was like, “I’m going to do it.” And then I started looking into it and I was like, “Oh my gosh, this is so much work.” But I pressed through, and it took me about three and a half years, and now we are here. So I’m super excited. That’s kind of my rags to riches Cinderella story about how I became a IBCLC.

Rebecca Dekker:

And which path did you take, Nichelle?

Nichelle Clark:

I took Pathway 3. Yeah, I took Pathway 3. That’s a good point. I don’t have any sort of background in healthcare at all. I came from … I was in the Navy. My background is English and political science, absolutely just nothing to do with healthcare. And so I wasn’t qualified for Pathway 1 because I wasn’t working as a nurse or a doctor or healthcare professional. We do have some peer counselor-based programs here, but unfortunately, just the process of being certified and a lot of the politics and issues that may come with being a person of color in those spaces, that wasn’t available to me. And then Pathway 2, they don’t have a Pathway 2 program here.

So Pathway 3 was kind of the pathway of least resistance for me, and it was very challenging. At the end of my journey, when I submitted my hours, I had about six mentors. Then I have a full-time day job, so I was working in corporate America, but my job allowed me to travel. So I was able to find IBCLCs that would mentor me when I would travel to different states. So I had a mentor in Texas. I live in Virginia, but when I would travel to Texas, I would go and I would earn some hours under her. I mean, it was a very slow process of six hours here, 10 hours there.

So yeah, I picked up hours here and there, piecemealing them together, doing some virtual hours when COVID started, which was kind of like a godsend. COVID sucks, but being able to have that door open to do telemedicine and things like that and get those hours that way … I was getting hours on West Coast time and East Coast time, so it was crazy but I got my little 500 hours and I did Pathway 3.

Iya Mystique Faodugun:

You did a whole lot. A whole lot. I mean, I know the listeners don’t know your journey like that, but I know what you went through, what you’ve been through. But you made it, and I’m so happy you made it, because we need you. We need more of you, IBCLCs like you.

Nichelle Clark:

Thank you.

Iya Mystique Faodugun:

Especially those who have your story, who have your experiences. May not be exact, but it’s similar. It relates. It aligns with a lot of just Black bodies saying, “I was told … I don’t want to chestfeed. I don’t want to latch. I want to pump. I want to bottle feed, and I was told that, ‘That’s not going to work for you. That’s not how this works.'” And it is very discouraging to hear that. I would say for me, when I literally had to switch to pumping because I was like, “I can’t do this. I can’t do this latching,” I didn’t get that support. It was very traumatic and folks were like, “No, you have to put the baby to the breast.” And I’m like, “I don’t want to do that.” And just kind of repeating yourself, advocating yourself, you do that a lot, definitely. You definitely make sure that parents advocate for themselves. I definitely commend you on your hard work and your journey, and your continued journey as well.

Nichelle Clark:

Thank you. Thank you. I am a big proponent of presenting parents with all the options. I think a lot of times, we start to undermine parents when we think that we know better for them, and so for me as a lactation provider, it’s kind of like I have this toolkit, I have a skillset that I studied and I learned about. I have a skillset, and that is what I bring. I can’t show up to your house with my skillset and say, “Well, I’m only going to use these four tools in my toolkit.” And so that kind of goes back to lactational professionals having to have pumping education in their toolkit. But giving parents … saying, “Hey, listen. I got a whole toolbox right here. What we need? Okay, I need to use 37 tools? Then that’s fine. We can do that.”

Present parents with all their options and allowing them to make in informed decision on their journey. I always tell my parents, “Hey, you could say you want to pump today and then decide tomorrow you wanted to latch or chestfeed or breastfeed. Cool.” That’s fine with me, because in my toolkit, that is what I have. If you decide that you want to latch, chestfeed, breastfeed, it’s not working out for you and you want to switch to pumping, that’s also in my toolkit. You decide that you don’t want to breastfeed at all or chestfeed at all, and then you decide a few months later that you want to, that’s also in the toolkit. We can find a way to get you to where you want to be. I’m such a champion for parents and I tell them all the time, “You let these people know that that’s … You let them know. We got a toolkit. Don’t let them tell you they don’t have the tools.”

Rebecca Dekker:

And I wanted to let our listeners know, too, in episode 189 of the EBB Podcast, we interviewed IBCLC Janiya Mitnaul Williams, and Janiya goes into a lot of detail about the different pathways to becoming an International Board Certified Lactation Consultant. So if that’s a career you’re interested in, go check that episode 189 out. And Nichelle, you said you did Pathway 3. Janiya talks a lot about Pathway 2, so you can hear about both options that way.

What was your experience, Nichelle, as a pumping parent? You mentioned that you had this desire to pump for your child. What did that experience end up being like?

Nichelle Clark:

It was absolutely amazing. This is the part of it that a lot of people don’t talk about. It’s kind of hush hush. But it was an absolutely amazing journey for me. They say that you lose a bond, and Mystique knows my son. He is so spunky and full of character and we argue like a old married couple. He’s my twin flame, he’s my everything, and we have such a great bond. So I want to start there, that a lot of times they think, “Oh, if you’re just pumping, you don’t have a bond with your baby.” Absolutely not. I think that my bond with my child was strengthened because I was able to say, “Hey, I enjoy doing this thing for you. I enjoy this labor of love.”

It was rocky. I’m not going to sugarcoat it. There were times where I would sit up in my bed and I’d be like, “This is just too much. I’m tired. I’m overwhelmed. I have to wake up and feed this little human. I don’t know what he wants. He’s still crying. I’m trying my best, but my boobs hurt. My pump’s not acting the way that it says it’s supposed to act in the manual.” I’ve had mastitis … it’s inflammation of the breast tissue … five times. That’s kind of crazy and unheard of, but I’ve had it five times. But I did go on to breastfeed for two and a half years, and it was absolutely amazing. It was just such a learning journey, learning about him, learning about me, but being able to have that empowerment to say, “You know what? This is the way I want to feed my baby, and I’m doing it. I’m going to do it.”

And so it was great. I had such a great time. At the recording of this podcast, I’m currently pregnant, nine months, ready to pop any moment, and we’re going to go for round two. So I’m super excited.

Rebecca Dekker:

That’s awesome.

Iya Mystique Faodugun:

I’m excited about that.

Rebecca Dekker:

It’s cool to hear a positive story about pumping, so I really appreciate you sharing that. When you became a pumping parent, how did that influence your role professionally? What was your experience professionally as an IBCLC who had this experience?

Nichelle Clark:

When I was going through my training process, I was literally in the thick of it. And so not only was I learning about how to help parents do it, I was a parent who was actually doing it at the time. And so it was a little hard to navigate, just finding time and space if I was traveling or if I was doing a consult. “Let me pump before the consult,” and getting hours and learning that way. “Let me pump before and try to store my milk and figure out a way to make that work.”

But also, the other side of it is, I have colleagues who are not necessarily advocates of that sort of thing, or they were kind of sort of the people that I encountered that told me it wasn’t possible. So I’m in these spaces and I’m hearing people say things like, “Oh, pumping’s not going to work,” or, “Oh, don’t work with that client,” this, that, and a third. And I’m kind of sitting there like, “Hey, actually, I am here and it does work and it can be a thing.” Just like Mystique, you were saying, they were telling me, “Oh, if you don’t latch the baby, you’re not going to have enough milk.” I’ve never latched my son, my four-year-old, ever, and my milk supply was plentiful. I want to express to people that that’s not a one-off. I’m not the exception or special in that way, that parents can absolutely do it.

So it was really kind of tricky navigating that, being in a professional space knowing what I was capable of, knowing what these parents are capable of. And not just me, because I’m in mom groups with other moms who are saying, “Yeah, we’re doing it, too.” Maybe they’re not trying to become IBCLCs, but yeah, we’re doing it and we’re making it work and we’re writing our own rules. I’m just kind of seeing these things with my mentor, Bryna Sampey, who was one of my mentors. She’s an IBCLC. I got to experience my first trans-lactation client, so that was amazing. I mean, and it was just so beautiful. I was just literally like … I had to log off. I’m like, “I’m crying.” It was just so beautiful to experience parents just being able to say, “This is what I’m doing for me and it’s working. It’s working. It doesn’t have to look like anybody else’s textbook example. It is working for me.” So that was definitely one of the highlights of my training. I love it.

Rebecca Dekker:

Then when you hear these negative people, naysayers who are your colleagues, how have you grown in your ability to advocate for parents, especially parents of color in their different journeys on breastfeeding or chestfeeding?

Nichelle Clark:

I’m talking to you guys and I have on my super professional voice, but Mystique knows, sometimes it enrages me a little bit and I really have to check them, because I don’t feel like that’s the parent’s job. And in my mind, when I hear them say these things, when I see them type these things, it makes me enraged, because you’ll say it to me, but they don’t think of you as their colleague as a parent as well. I’m like, “Hey, I’m still bearing children. That is still my reality. Maybe you’re past that or maybe that’s not your thing, but I’m still a parent.”

And so when I hear them say these things, I immediately correct it. I address it, I correct it because I never want them to repeat it to a parent. I’m like, “No, please don’t ever say that. It’s highly offensive. It’s disrespectful, and it’s just not supportive over all.” So I do try to correct it. Gently. Gently most times, but sometimes I can get a little spicy with it, just because I want all parents to feel empowered in their entire birth and feeding experiences, no matter what they choose to do.

Iya Mystique Faodugun:

And yes, I’ve witnessed your spiciness. I’m always for your spiciness, because it’s a lot of … I will say crickets when it comes to advocating for parents who pump and not understanding that there are a variety of reasons why parents are choosing to pump and not latch the baby to their chest or breast. It could be just they don’t want to. It could be the experienced trauma. A lot of people in the area, in the field … I’m going to be nice with my words as well, sweetness. They don’t take that into consideration. It’s very traditional, by the textbook type of thing.

So I want you, if possible … Because I know when it comes to evidence-based research, you’re good for laying it down. I think the whole village in the lactation and birth working field is good for laying down evidence-based information, but can you share with our listeners what’s it like just dealing with, like you said, with just the lack of support and evidence-based education around pumping, especially for Black parents who want to pump? What is that like? I want the listeners to understand this, because not all pumping doesn’t matter, all breastfeeding/chestfeeding is not the same. They always say in the field, “All bodies matter,” and in reality, it doesn’t. We’re not the same. So when it comes to Black parents who are wanting to pump, can you explain that to our listeners? What’s that like, just professionally and personally? What is that like as far as trying to show and prove evidence-based research does matter when it comes to pumping and advocacy, especially for the Black parents in our community?

Nichelle Clark:

Yeah. We were actually just having this conversation on Facebook not too long ago when people were talking about sharing those traditions. And so there comes a time where we do want to share the traditions. We absolutely want to get back to that, but we also want to look at the evidence and the research that we have in front of us. My grandma used to say, “Take the meat and spit out the bones.” There’s not a lot of research that exists around pumping parents, so you’re kind of open to interpretation a little bit. When I say that, I mean we know that you need 8 to 12 removals a day. You need to get in 8 to 12 removals a day and you need to feed on demand.

I actually got into this argument with someone not too long ago about on demand. You can also pump on demand. That’s a thing. You can absolutely pump on demand with kind of the cycles that your baby feeds on. You can kind of look at it and say, “Okay, wow, during the day, we’re at about every two and a half hours, so you know what? Maybe I should pump every two hours so then that way, I’m right ahead of the baby and I have milk for them.” But you have to start sort of looking at these manuals. So with pumping, it gets a little tricky because not only am I looking at the physiology of it, of the parent, but now, let’s look at these machines.

And pumps, I do want to stop and say, they are medical devices. So the way that we hand them out to parents like candy with no explanation on how to use them, no tips and tricks, no nothing really, really scares me. Because I’m looking at a parent and they’re hooking up a medical device to their body with no sort of just idea of how it works or how it’s going to affect them.

And so it’s kind of really hard, but you start to compile those things. I’m really big on following some of the protocols that we have out there … the Academy of Breastfeeding Medicine has one on milk storage that is one of my favorites. My colleagues poke at me a little bit, but we talk about saving breast milk and how it’s not fragile, storing it. I have parents who are working. Whatever the reason that the parents are pumping … they’re working, they are out of the home for whatever reason … I don’t care if they want to get out of the home because they want to go and do cartwheels for three hours and want to be away from their baby. It is what it is. But we are in a country … I’m a US-based IBCLC, and so we’re in a country that doesn’t offer paid maternity leave or really any maternity leave. These parents have to get out here and they have to pump.

So you want to have those resources for them. So I really just try to compile as much as I can, take the things that we have an interpret them for them. “Hey, your milk is not going to expire at two hours and one minute. It’s okay. It’s okay to give yourself some of that grace,” or whatever the hour timeframe is. And just have those resources for them, but also sharing them with my colleagues, because I can’t touch everybody. That’s the biggest thing. People are like, “I want to send you clients.” I’m like, “No, no, no. I mean, yes, send me clients also, but you guys have to be prepared to help them, too. If I’m not there, you’ve got to give them the right pumping information, too.”

So I try to just keep as many resources as I can, read and stay up on the protocols, the latest research that’s coming out, and then always ask those questions. “Well, how does this apply to parents who are pumping?” Because a lot of times, they don’t consider that. “Hey, you guys did a study. Did you do any studies with any parents that are pumping?” And of course, the answer is generally no. But it’s kind of like, all right, I just want to plug your ear and let you know that the next time you go back and follow up on this study, you need to include parents who are pumping. So it’s kind of a give and take, but they’re getting there. I have hope for the lactation field one day that we’ll get there, especially for Black parents, because y’all know I don’t play about them. I don’t play about anybody, but I really don’t play about my Black parents, just being a Black mom myself.

Iya Mystique Faodugun:

You touched on providing resources and especially passing out pumps like candy, because that is a thing. Do you feel that more … I’ll say lactation professionals, because there are breastfeeding peer counselors who assist parents who want to pump as well. Do you feel like there are more lactation professionals just handing these pumps and these resources like, “Read it. Read the instructions. Here’s the resources. Be about your way,” or are they at least sitting down with them, asking, “Do you have any concerns?” giving them tips and tricks, or just coming to the conclusion that, like you said, this is a medical device and this can’t just be passed out around all, as one of my uncles used to say, all willy nilly? But they can. So do you feel like that’s being done more, especially to the community … whoever’s community, as far as are there just, “Here’s the pump. Here’s the instructions. Here’s some resources to look at, and here you go”? Do you feel like they’re doing that more so in the field?

Nichelle Clark:

Yeah, unfortunately, a lot of times it’s like you said. That’s what happens. Parents kind of show up. On a personal note, I remember when I … I knew I wanted to exclusively pump and when I was at the hospital, I said, “Hey, can you guys make sure …” On my tour, I had asked, “What pumps do you guys have?” da, da, da, da, da, just asking questions. And I asked if they could have a pump in my room. I was like, “Hey, can you guys send up the lactation consultant?” Because I knew I needed to be sized for flanges. That’s the diameter of your nipple and the flange breast shields that you use. And the lactation consultant came up and she was kind of like, “Well, if you’re going to pump, then I don’t really need to be here.” And that is an absolutely not okay demeanor to take, because again, it’s a device.

And so you do see a lot of times, because parents are able to order them through their insurance, the insurances don’t give them … Of course, we know insurance here in the US, they don’t give them any guidance with that, so they’re kind of leaning on their friends, they’re leaning on social media or the internet to kind of tell them what to do with this device. Their pumps range in all kind of prices. There are some very expensive ones on the market. I can think of a $500 pump right now. Parents will get it and order it and then don’t really know what to do with it, they don’t know if it works for them. And now they’re just stuck with this really, really expensive piece of medical equipment that we say should not be shared. We say it’s not safe to share those kind of things. Because even if it is a closed-system pump, it should be a single user if you’re getting it from your insurance.

And now they’re stuck with it, and these parents don’t know what to do and that absolutely affects the chestfeeding or breastfeeding journey. Because now I have this medical equipment that I can’t use, I don’t know what to do with it, no one’s really here to tell me what to do with it or how to help me. They gave me some links to read online, but again, they don’t work in this field, so they don’t know what some of these words mean. I tell my colleagues all the time, “You have to communicate with your audience. You have to understand who you’re communicating with.” If I’m working with another IBCLC as a client, I know that I can speak to them a certain way. If I’m working with a midwife as a client, I know that there’s certain language that I can use that they will understand. That’s not everyone, so we have to really be clear with these parents and sit down with them. Because again, things get lost in interpretation. They could read a link and …

I actually have a pump now, my personal breast pump, the manual’s wrong. So if I go tell you to read the manual and the manual’s incorrect, now you’re just like, “Oh yeah, I’m totally using this medical device right,” with a wrong manual. And you see that a lot. You see them just kind of being handed out willy nilly, like you said, and parents don’t know what to do with them and then, again, then they stop breastfeeding and they say, “Well, chestfeeding didn’t work for me.” I mean, you kind of had some missteps in this. It’s not on the parents. It’s on the people who gave you a medical device without any sort of explanation on how to use it.

Rebecca Dekker:

I can think it would be really important … I’m thinking of NICU parents, you know?

Nichelle Clark:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Rebecca Dekker:

A whole nother population where their babies really need human milk. It’s like medicine for them, but their parents don’t always get supported in how to use the pump, and like you said, strategies. I remember my first child, I think, was born before pumps were paid for by the Affordable Care Act, and I remember when that shifted and my second baby, I went and got a new pump. It was the same model, but it worked so much better. And I realized that because I had pumped for several years with my first pump, the engine had … Whatever you call it. Not the engine. You know what I’m talking about.

Nichelle Clark:

The motor.

Iya Mystique Faodugun:

Yeah, the motor.

Rebecca Dekker:

The motor. Sorry. The motor had worn out and that’s why I was so struggling with my milk supply. Nobody had ever explained to me, if it’s not making as loud of a noise or pumping as strongly, it’s because the motor is dying. Nobody explained something as basic as that.

Nichelle Clark:

Yeah, and there are parts on it that you have to replace. I’ll give you a little tip or trick. The valves create suction, and so all pumps have valves or membranes, and the valves and membranes create suction. Some pumps just have valves, some pumps have valves and membranes. And when these pumps are designed, they’re not designed for parents who are going to be doing … I even say heavy-duty pumping. And when I say heavy-duty pumping, I mean four or five times a day. If you’re exclusively pumping, you could be doing 8 to 10. And so they don’t say that necessarily in the manual. Some of the companies are getting better about it. They’ll put out resource links on their website, “Hey, you might want to change these parts.”

But again, like you said, parents are just using it thinking, “Okay, everything’s great. No one’s ever told me that if I’m not feeling a strong suction, maybe I need to look at some of these parts. Maybe I need to take it apart and see what’s going on.” And then, just like you said, you’re like, “Wow, why is my milk supply going down?” The parents internalize that, and that’s the part that really grinds my gears, is that parents start to internalize that. They think, “There’s something wrong with me. I’m not making enough milk. I’m not producing what my baby needs. I’m, I’m, I’m,” and it’s like, “No, it’s not you.” Let’s start placing the blame and shifting that blame back where it belongs.

And if it is the lactation community as professionals, I’m willing to accept that, because I feel like we need to shoulder that burden. I don’t run away from that. Or if people say, “My lactation consultant never told me,” I just apologize. “I’m really, really sorry that you had that experience. I can’t do anything to change it and I know it wasn’t me, but I know the type of care you deserve and I know that you didn’t get what you needed.” And so we have to start shifting that burden back on these companies, back on these healthcare systems, back on these professionals, unfortunately, that are not providing these parents the support that they deserve and that they need, that we know. And that’s the part that kind of gets me. It’s like, we know these things. We know we should be telling them better to help them out, but they start to internalize it.

Rebecca Dekker:

Like you said, it’s the system problem, too. We got an email at Evidence Based Birth® a few months ago from an IBCLC who was a registered nurse as well and just saying how helpless and depressed they felt because they have so few IBCLCs for a huge healthcare system. It just goes to show you that the hospitals are not always prioritizing lactation support, and they staff the bare minimum number of IBCLCs where they can’t possibly reach everybody and give everybody the support that they need.

Nichelle Clark:

Yeah. I did part of my internship for my 500 clinical hours, and they have to be hands on, our minute-for-minute hours. Meaning if I was with you for 35 minutes, then I was with you for 35 minutes. I’m not just going to round up and say it was an hour. And I did half of it … I was lucky enough, not being a healthcare professional … Because normally, that’s not heard of. But I was lucky enough to do about half of it in a hospital, and I mean, they’re seeing 27 parents in a eight-hour shift, and these parents have questions and there’s family in there. And then baby is tired, or baby is in the NICU, or waiting for baby to come back from testing, and it’s a rat race, and then you have one person or you have two people.

I think at the most, I was at a hospital that was seeing about … They had 42 beds for mother/baby, and they still had to provide some of the parents like, “I don’t know if I want to do formula or not.” A lot of them say, “Oh yeah, I’ll be fine if a lactation consultant comes by,” but you have two people just to do that and it’s just absolutely like … There’s no way you can touch everyone. There’s no way that you can really spend the time that you need to, but you try your best. And just like you said, you feel hopeless because you’re like, “Man, I mean, I really wish I could have spent 10 more minutes with that family,” or, “I wish I could have had five more minutes with that family,” and then you send them out into the world. They discharge them and then it’s kind of like, “Think for yourself. Sink or swim.”

Iya Mystique Faodugun:

I agree, because I’m not going to mention where I worked, but as a lactation professional, that’s how it was. It was you see the parents in the hospital, you do your rounds, you answer the questions, you go about your business. And leaving that room, I’m like, “No, this isn’t right.” And it’s hard standing up, like, “Excuse me, this isn’t right. This is not working. This is broken.” And then when they come back for a followup, it’s still broken. They, 9 times out of 10, are worse, in a worse condition than they were, and their milk is drying up. And like you spoke about before, they’re like, “Oh, is it me? It’s me,” and it’s the self-blame.

I was the, I guess, big mama type of energy to be like, “Baby, it’s not you. It is the system.” They didn’t like that. I didn’t go by the book. But I’m like, this is how you help parents. You can’t treat these parents like they are a subject in a test book, you know?

Nichelle Clark:

Yeah.

Iya Mystique Faodugun:

This is real life. These are real people. They’re real lives. These are real families. It’s just amazes me. It’s getting better. But then … and that was like … My son is six. That was like three years ago. It’s getting better. But then, I was like, “What is going on? Do y’all not care? What is happening?” So I’m glad you definitely touched on that. I’m thinking back and listening to you talk about your experience as a professional, personally I’m like, “Nichelle was my IBCLC. I wish she was IBCLC then when I had my son,” because I didn’t get that support. I was that parent that I got a store-bought pump and nobody told me, “It’s the pump, it’s not you.” It was literally, “Oh, it’s because you’re pumping. It’s because you decided not to latch the baby anymore.” And I’m like, “Huh?”

And that guilt just intensifies in me and it set me into a very deep postpartum depression, which got to the point that I stopped nursing, I stopped … Because I was doing all three. I was doing all of it, formula, pumping, latching. I was doing all of it. The cup. I was doing everything, doing the most, as I say, and it got to the point where it wore me out. It was exhausting and I stopped at seven months because I gave up. I was like, “I can’t do this anymore,” instead of somebody encouraging me and not guiding me like you do, Nichelle, for everybody, and not debunking the myths that are out there about pumping.

Iya Mystique Faodugun:

So for those who don’t know or who need to know, when it comes to pumping, what are at least three myths? Because I know you are good for, as I say, checking, collecting, and correcting folks who just provide wrong information, just steering people the wrong way. So what are three top myths you want to share with our listeners when it comes to pumping?

Nichelle Clark:

Yeah. My favorite one … I’m actually wearing a shirt if you’re watching this. It actually says, “Pumping is breastfeeding.” We didn’t have enough space for chestfeeding on here, character-wise. But that’s definitely the number one myth, is that it’s not, is that pumping is not chestfeeding or breastfeeding. It’s the same way where they’re like, “A C-section birth isn’t birth.” What? What are you talking about? A human came out. It’s a birth. It’s the same thing.

If you look at the definitions on Webster’s, you look at the definition by the World Health Organization, human milk feeding. If your baby is getting human milk and it’s coming from the breast or the chest, it is breast or chestfeeding. That is the source. That’s the product. That’s where it’s at. That’s where it’s coming from. So that’s the biggest myth that I hear a lot of times, and I hear parents say it all the time and I always encourage them and correct them. They’ll say, “Well, I’m not breastfeeding, I’m pumping.” No. No. You’re breastfeeding. “I’m not chestfeeding. I’m just using a pump.” No. No, you’re still chestfeeding. Absolutely, you are. And giving them their power back. You don’t have to be a certain subset. I hate that, that we create that division in all of human milk feeding. Like, hey, no. We’re all going towards the same common goal here. So that’s definitely a big myth.

The second one I would say is that a lot of people say pumping isn’t sustainable. It’s unsustainable. It’s unsustainable for parents to maintain these schedules. It’s actually not. If you support them and provide them with the resources that they need, it’s absolutely sustainable. I think, again, we undermine these parents’ will, we undermine just their sheer heart in it. If you give them the tools, “Hey, this is how you do it. This is how I can help you,” they can absolutely sustain it. I mean, I went on to do it for two and a half years, and I’m not that special. I’m not a superwoman or anything. I see parents who go longer, who feed multiples, who feed twins, who are feeding maybe an older child breast milk and a younger baby breast milk or chest milk. So it’s absolutely sustainable.

Just like you, Mystique, I was told … I called to schedule my son … He was born the week of Thanksgiving, so we had to call the pediatrician and do a special thing to say, “Hey, when do we bring him in? Are you guys open on Black Friday?” He was born that week. So they said, “No, you can come the next week,” and they’re asking me some questions about him, a new infant, “Let’s just get some information down. If the doctor thinks it’s a big thing that you need to meet that 48 hours, we will.” And I was calling and the nurse was like, “Oh no, sweetheart. You know …” I was like, “Well, I’m pumping his milk.” And she was like, “Well, okay, but you know that if you don’t latch him to the breast, you’re not going to have a supply. Your milk is just going to go away after three months.” And it was just so, like, “Okay, thanks for that wrong information. Let’s keep going with this conversation.”

But a lot of people just think it’s unsustainable, and when you ask them why, they have absolutely no evidence nor research behind it. They just pull that out of thin air. So that’s definitely one of the myths that I definitely want to debunk.

And let’s see. I don’t know, I think kind of going back to what I said at first is that you can’t have a bond with your baby if you’re pumping. That’s really taught a lot. It’s absolutely the most crazy thing that I ever think, because I think, like, you grew a human. And even if you didn’t, even if you adopted and you’re inducing lactation, this is your person. I watch a lot of Grey’s Anatomy. This is your person. This is your little person and absolutely, you can do whatever it is that you put your mind to with that person. You can have a bond with that person. I have bonds with friends, people who are like family to me that with don’t share the same kinship or same bloodline. I always call Mystique my kindred. That’s my kindred right there. That is my family.

So of course you can have bonds with people like that. We don’t have to rack them and stack them, “Oh, it can’t be this.” We kind of want to play these oppression Olympics in breastfeeding. “Oh, I’m better because I did it this way. I’m better because I did it this way.” I always have a saying, just love in every drop. Nobody chestfeeds or breastfeeds because they want to be better than someone else. They’re doing it for their little person or their little people. So definitely want to debunk the myth that you don’t have a strong bond with your baby if you don’t put them to the chest or the breast. It’s absolutely hogwash. Or that they’re not attached. People say that all the time, like, “Oh my gosh, chestfed babies, breastfed babies are going to be super clingy.” They’re going to be that way because they’re children. I never latched my son to my breast or chest ever and he is on me just like a second skin, right here all the time.

Iya Mystique Faodugun:

Same for mine. I love them. We love them.

Nichelle Clark:

Yes. 

Iya Mystique Faodugun:

That debunks the myth that they’re not attached.

Nichelle Clark:

I’m just saying. What? He is attached to me like Velcro. So I don’t know what y’all are talking about, but yeah. It’s just crazy. Crazy myth.

Rebecca Dekker:

Nichelle, I want to circle back to something you said in the beginning about how your experience was wonderful, but there were also difficult moments. I know for myself, when I went back to work, I had to pump for all three of my children for about a year and it was really hard, and it was one of the things I was really glad when my childbearing years were over. So I was wondering if you could help us, those listeners who may be struggling with the difficulties of pumping. Do you have any positive affirmations or ways of reframing, or maybe advice for where they can go to get help? Because maybe it’s not them, like we were saying. Maybe it’s the pump or the lack of support.

Nichelle Clark:

Yeah. I definitely always talk to my colleague … When I talk about pumping, I say, “Do not send your clients into hostile environments.” That’s traumatic. And so if you are struggling with that, there are a lot of good online groups. I admin a few Facebook groups. I have a group for Black moms. I have Black Breastfeeding Mamas Circle. All Black parents are open and welcome to join it, that’s just kind of how the name fleshed out. But finding your community and your people, I think, is a really good way. I know online support groups can be kind of brutal, but kind of just join around and just look around and see if these are kind of your people that will support you and build you up.

I struggled a lot with just not knowing if I was doing the right thing. I didn’t have a me in the field at the time or around me when I was doing it, so I didn’t know. And those pressures start to sink in when, “My baby is sick. Is it because I’m not latching him? Is the reason that my breasts are inflamed and my tissue is inflamed because I’m not latching?” Just like Mystique said, that’s the first thing they go to. “Oh, it’s because you’re not nursing, you’re not latching.” And it’s kind of like, “Am I doing the right thing?”

Even now, as a lactation professional, I laugh all the time, for my second baby, I have my own lactation consultant. I hired someone to help me through the journey. Even knowing what I know, it’s kind of like, “Okay, can I do this? Am I doing it right? Do I have the right tools that I need? Is there something that I’m missing?” So I would definitely say finding your people … While I love being an IBCLC and I think IBCLCs are awesome, it’s the best career in the world, everyone doesn’t need a IBCLC. That’s why, like Mystique said, we have peer counselors, we have breastfeeding specialists. There’s a lactation professional for every budget, for every kind of demographic, so I would definitely just encourage people to reach out and ask me questions. If you find me on social media, if you would like a lactation consultant that’s maybe, I don’t know, a different ethnicity because that’s your ethnicity or you’re a different religion practices, things like that, spiritual practices, I can absolutely … “Hey,” reach out to a client.

Just finding your people … But just to know that you are doing your best. I always say, “Love in every drop.” There is literally love in every drop of breast milk. And also, one thing that’s random, it’s like if you choose not to chestfeed or breastfeed, that’s completely fine, too. I think a lot of parents … I’ve worked with parents who kind of just need that permission to quit. I’m not going to say permission, because you can’t give them permission, but they need that support. When it becomes emotionally, mentally, and physically detrimental, as a lactation professional, I have to know when it’s time for me to say, “Hey, listen. In the toolbox, there’s also the option to pack up this whole toolbox and just be done. And no one’s going to look at you differently. I don’t feel no type of way.”

I have people who … I’ve been halfway through a consult with a client and I’ve been like, “You don’t want to do this, do you?” And they’re like, “No,” and they start crying. I’m like, “It’s okay. I’m not offended.” I’m not offended. I don’t feel any type of way. I’m not the breastfeeding police. I’m not the chestfeeding police. I’m not going to come to your house and be like, “You must give that baby human milk.” But just having people that will support you. I’m always cool with firing people. I like to fire people. So if your lactation professional isn’t working for you, also, you can fire them. I’m not offended. I always tell my clients this all the time. “If we get through the consult and you decide that you don’t want to work with me anymore, please, I can give you three references. I promise, I am not offended.” Because maybe it’s not a good fit.

So definitely just finding your people that are going to support you and build you up in your journey, you deserve that, you are worth that. And if that’s not happening for you … The first indication that you get that something’s wrong, your Spidey senses start going off, “Okay, thank you very much.” And it doesn’t have to be a nasty thing. “Thank you very much,” and move on and find someone that’s your people and your tribe.

Rebecca Dekker:

I love it, Nichelle. Thank you so much for all the wisdom you’ve shared with us today and the stories and explanations. We really appreciate it. Do you have any resources or projects you’d like to share with our audience? I know you mentioned you’re consulting, but is there anything else you want to talk about?

Nichelle Clark:

Yeah. Actually, you can follow me on social media. I am on Facebook and Instagram @sonshineandrainbowslactation. That’s SonShine, S-O-N, because I have a little boy. He’s my sunshine and light of my life. And then rainbows. I’ll give you a little backstory on that. He’s actually a rainbow baby. We had some previous losses before we had him, and then he was our little sunshine. Drives me crazy. Love him to death. But S-O-N shine and Rainbows on Facebook and Instagram.

I also work with a few online breastfeeding support groups. There’s Black Breastfeeding Mamas Circle. We also have a group for moms and parents of toddlers. Again, it says moms, but all parents are encouraged and welcome to join. And then I have a good friend of mine. She’s a CLC. That’s a Certified Lactation Counselor. Her name is Jimeika Brown. She’s based in New York, and we actually do a donation group, facilitate a peer-support donation group for parents of color. So if you are a parent of color … Afro-Latina, African American, of color … you can join the group and find other parents of color who are donating and sharing milk. So that’s a really good thing. Human milk sharing gets kind of nasty. There are a lot of nasty little politics in it, and of course, the deep-rooted pain and trauma in this country, in the United States, behind that with parents of color. So you can definitely find us there, donation support group on Facebook. Sorry, Breast Milk Donation for Black Moms, and find us there.

Anything else I’m working on? I’m working on a few things. Just follow me on social media. You’ll see. Yeah, I have some educational offerings. I work with LER, which is Lactation Education Resources. I do their induced lactation and re-lactation, which I got to include some of Mystique’s amazing Black Birth Healer content for that. She was so wonderful to let me include that.

Iya Mystique Faodugun:

Thank you.

Nichelle Clark:

I’m so grateful for that. I love that. I get to that slide and then it just … it gets really real. I’m like, “I know we did all the formalities, but also, watch the way you speak, watch how you’re talking, okay?”

Iya Mystique Faodugun:

Exactly. Exactly.

Nichelle Clark:

So I do their re-lactation and induced lactation, and that one’s for parents who are kind of doing nontraditional ways. Induced lactation is when you’re just bringing a milk supply to fruition that wasn’t there. And then re-lactation is if you ever chestfed or breastfed before and you’re bringing your milk supply back. So that can apply to all kinds of parents. And then that’s pretty much it, pretty much what I got going on. Birthing a whole human. Trying to evidence-based birth a whole human into this world, so…

Rebecca Dekker:

I was going to say, yeah, birthing a human is a big project, growing and birthing one.

Iya Mystique Faodugun:

Thank you so much, Nichelle. As always, it is a pleasure. I love you so much. This has been an awesome talk. If you guys would like to rate this podcast, please do so on all the podcast platforms of Evidence Based Birth® and give us your feedback. Let us know how we’re doing, what you’ll like to hear more of, all those great things. And again, we thank you so much, Nichelle, for coming by and just sharing your wisdom and your knowledge and your energy with not only us, but our listeners for EBB.

Nichelle Clark:

Thank you so much for having me.

Rebecca Dekker:

This podcast episode was brought to you by the book Babies Are Not Pizzas: They’re Born, Not Delivered! Babies Are Not Pizzas is a memoir that tells the story of how I navigated a broken healthcare system and uncovered how I could still receive evidence-based care. In this book, you’ll learn about the history of childbirth and midwifery, the evidence on a variety of birth topics, and how we can prevent preventable trauma in childbirth. Babies Are Not Pizzas is available on Amazon as a Kindle, paperback, hardcover, and Audible book. Get your copy today and make sure to email me after you read it to let me know your thoughts.